Updates in progress

Hi All,

I expect that this will all be worked out by Thursday night, but we're currently evaluating our raiding schedule. Because of our success on Saturday night, we definitely need more time in ToC25. Since we don't have more time on Saturday nights, it may be that we move this raid to Fridays. If we do this, we'll have an announcement by the end of this week. What we are currently considering is as follows:

Thursdays: 6-8pm server. Ulduar 25. Alts allowed. Loot priority goes to mains. Raid ID gets extended for progression purposes. Loot continues to use Veterancy system.

Fridays: 6-10pm server. ToC25. No Alts. Loot uses Veterancy system. Not sure yet if we will extend existing or start new. If done early, will consider VoA25 if controlled.

Saturdays: 8-10pm server. Onyxia 25 and VoA 25 (VoA if we control wintergrasp and did not do Friday).

For Onyxia 25 and VoA 25, loot will continue to be a 1-epic main spec over off spec free roll system.

As I mentioned, this is not set in stone. I hope to have more information later this week. I just wanted to let everyone know some of what we are currently discussing with The Silver Hammer for our raids. For those that might be wondering why we don't just start earlier on Saturdays, there are several reasons:

1. Our 10-man team raids on Saturday nights.
2. The Silver Hammer has more raiders available on Thursday and Friday nights
3. Attendance has been suffering for Ulduar 25 - and we are not here to run raids that people aren't interested in.

As always, feel free to post your thoughts, questions, or concerns.

Thank you,
-Boman

Moving ToC-25 to Friday effectively removes all my raids except ToC-10 on Saturday with you guys

I'm not too happy about that but whatever is best for the guild.

Veterancy . Dumbest free roll loot system ever. Once everyone keeps attending the raid it's a free roll. No fair loot distribution at all. Even if you restrict it to one item a person it is still not fair. Not all the time does more than one item a specific role can benefit from drop in the same raid which means that the person that won the one piece of cloth this week can win the one piece of cloth that might drop next week as well. Hopefully that never happens but it is not impossible. Also, if someone gets sick on a raid night and misses it, it harshly impacts their ability to ever get back a chance to roll on stuff since they now have to wait until either everyone in their role (dps/heal/etc.) gets that item (assuming they all want it) before they can (ignorant of even if the item was better for said person). Or they have to wait until all the others reach the vet cap as well as themselves at which point it becomes free roll again so it's stupid.

Everyone knows I have a problem with veterancy and everyone knows I have a problem when people who deserve gear upgrades don't get them. So it's just my usual complaint and not really of consequence.

Although an alternative Boman:

• DKP awarded for punctuality, per boss kill (so leaving mid raid is penalized), and raid ending (also a penalty for leaving before raid ends)
  
• No discrimination between items. Meaning a sword has the same value as a trinket, as a cloak, as a belt etc. So basically rolls would be for an ITEM.
  
• All items have a cost of half your current DKP which would prevent hording DKP as well as giving everyone an equal chance of loot being distributed to them in the event of having to miss a raid or leave early due to real life problems since not everyone would want to spend half their DKP on an item you might be willing to. Items will then have value based on how valuable it is to individual people within the raid. Loot is now spread throughout consequent raids so that if someone wins the one item that drops this week (say a caster cloth belt) that 7 other people could have also gotten, next week they will allow the other 7 to win the next one item that drops for the night that they could use (say a caster cloth wrist) without any hassle.

I'd prefer it if my suggestion is not debated here since scheduling is more important than what loot system is used but I'd do anything to get rid of veterancy for something that is fairer rather than something that is "comfortable".

At the end of the day though it is about clearing ToC-25 but after the first clearing people will not be coming to raids just to clear it. They will be coming for gear.

like flint i also hate veterancy it also suck when good players loss gear that would help there dps to people that no matter how much upgrads they get there dps is still the same and a rule to force people to learn or ask for help. It dose not have to be a dps off to be first but people pulling ther own weight would be nice

What? Another time day/time change? Why don't the 10 mans move their times... 10 people affected instead of 25.

And I don't understand how Uldar should count against ToC for veterancy. I have a life. I can't raid all time. I commit to one raid and that should could for itself. Now I'm screwed for not being part of a completely different raid!

For me.. it knocks me out.

Hope ya'll have fun!

Briteleaf

I hope everyone understands that no decision is ever taken lightly. In addition, raiding decisions are discussed jointly with The Silver Hammer. In this particular case we had everything on the table. Our main goal was how to make the most of our 25-man raids. So the following is my commentary, in no particular order, which may or may not be shared by others involved in the decision making process.

10-Man: I would have been open to moving our 10-man team to another day and or time slot if that would have benefited our 25-man raid. That really didn't make it to the table because it was clear that starting our 25-man earlier on Saturdays would not be beneficial. For The Silver Hammer, Saturdays was not a regular raiding day before joining with us, so they don't have as many players available and some of those that do come are only able to because we start later.

Shared Veterancy: Although I can understand the mixed emotions surrounding this one, from a raiding progression perspective it is the best option. We want to reward those players that are able to come to every raid. We want our best geared players to be those that come to every raid. And having some incentive for coming to every raid could help with attendance. On top of that, the people that come to those raids week after week and put up with the lack of progression, late starts, wipes, etc... on old content that should be easy by now... have my sincere thank you.

Loot Systems: Loot is never easy. Ever. I do my best to stick to whatever the letter of the rules are that we have set. When issues comes up we look at if there are any changes we could or should make to improve in the future. In this case we did have another discussion with The Silver Hammer about Veterancy and DKP. We will probably have this discussion again before Icecrown as we plan for the next tier of raiding. That's not saying it will change, but group dynamics change constantly so we'll have to see where things go.

Ulduar 25: Right now our goal is to clear it. Some days we have a team that could go far, other days we have a team that can't get past Razorscale. Hopefully extending our raid id helps us to achieve more. If not, it won't be for a lack of trying. Once we do clear it, if Icecrown isn't out yet we may take a break on that day. But until we get there, it's not something we're really thinking about. It's another reason why we still do not allow "alts" in the raid unless it's a group need. If we do clear and choose to continue with Ulduar, that could change. And if that were to change, that would also re-open up the discussion about veterancy being shared.

Icecrown: I fully expect our raiding schedule to change once again with Icecrown. This is pure speculation right now, but Thursdays will probably turn into ToC25 and Friday/Saturday will be combined for Icecrown. Icecrown is a big place, so we'll need as much time as possible. As I mentioned, this is nothing more than me throwing something down and could be completely different when the time actually comes.

I'm sure there's more to discuss, but I think that's enough for now. If there are any other topics you'd like to hear my thoughts on, feel free to post and ask. I'm always happy to share what I'm thinking.

-Boman

Am i the only 1 seeing problem with dps or is every1 just ignoring it. Week after week these people get gear yet they have a hard time out dping oz. I wounder if they even know how bad there dps is. they make no effort to get better like enchant there gear. gem right or get easy upgrade out side of raids like t8 head,chest or ask for help iam sure people would help i would.Y should they get gear over people that are doing all those things and doing there best to be the best?

Ok, I am gonna present my problems one by one.

1. I dislike veterancy, as I think many people do. I am willing to deal with it but the fact that you are combining it with Uld 25 veterancy is unfair. It is a shameless way to force people to raid more to get gear. I play WoW too much as it is and having to continue to do Ulduar 25 is pidgeon holing me to play WoW more and more.

2. Performance- Helioz is right and it corresponds with my Veterancy issue. I outperform almost everyone, consistantly on DPS and with this veterancy free roll stuff i'm gonna get outrolled even though im willing to bring my A-game week after week. Heck, Bo out DPS' the majority of the raid with his ALT spec. I hate to say it but people who WANT gear need to bring dedication and their best. IF they aren't willing to do that, they don't deserve gear.

3. Attitude- I go to a raid expecting to wipe, everyone needs to stay positive and with the drama these loot rules and performance bring it makes it hard to have a good head. We need to lighten up, we are not good enough to be hardcore raiders, so lets do this casually and have a little more fun.

i dont feel i deserve to be a leader. leaders dont get mad over gear and how bad dps is.Ever week i raid 25man's with TSH noobs i get more and more bitchy.I hate how thats changing me i love raiding with the guild but if i keep going iam sure people are not going to like me.Iam sure most of tsh people have me on ignore now. Sorry but iam not going to toc 25 or any raid with them any more if u guys feel i should not come to 10mans i understand.

Unfortunately this is going to be a problem with or without TSH. This is the same problem people were having pre-bc with the 40 mans and i'm sure it will continue to be a problem till the end of WoW. That problem is the fact that in all raiding groups there are going to be a mix of carriers and the carried. There is always the hope in all raiding experiences that you will have a full group of 25+ people who are all carriers and no carried but it will never happen (except in groups where you are actually getting paid to play) Now this is a slide rule not a black and white concept- I myself am somewhere in the middle, I hope I'm a bit more towards the carrier side but its more than possible I am not.
Now sooner or later in ALL raids the carriers get angry at the carried and they either leave or play less or start sliding down on the scale themselves. Either way raids get defunct. People thought that when Raiding was changed from 40 to 25 that that would mean that there would be less carried but unfortunately there are more carried out there than carriers because deep down we all just want to coast and play the game for fun without having to pump out a certain amount of threat, or dps or healing to get the job done.

The point of this all, while horribly depressing if you actually think about it, is to live with it, understand that it is and always will be a fact of life in one aspect or another. The point is, without them we wouldn't have enough people to do a 25 man period. So personally, I would rather do a 25man and get stuff killed and perhaps get some loot eventually, than not do it at all which is really whats going on.

Please realize that the reason we raid with them is because we don't have the people to do it ourselves. They are aparently more than willing to raid for the fun of it cause they are all friends. What does that make us then? Are we elitists? Do we not enjoy playing the game with each other? Would Arrdim be any less fun to make fun of if he was doing better dps?

I've been playing for almost 5 years now and I've been through guilds who have fun together and those who strive for perfection and believe me- you gain more longterm friends and you get a better feeling from the ones who have fun together- plus they usually last about 3 times longer- and its usually the strive for perfection that brings even fun guilds down- try not to do it so quick for DO, I like it here and I enjoy the people who I play with.

We aren't elitist but we are people who all have time that can be wasted.
I have a ton of fun raiding with you guys but I like to think i'm not slacking in what i'm doing. Being a good player doesn't mean you can't have fun but when those bad players are making it less fun for the good players it becomes an issue.

helioz wrote:i dont feel i deserve to be a leader. leaders dont get mad over gear and how bad dps is.Ever week i raid 25man's with TSH noobs i get more and more bitchy.I hate how thats changing me i love raiding with the guild but if i keep going iam sure people are not going to like me.Iam sure most of tsh people have me on ignore now. Sorry but iam not going to toc 25 or any raid with them any more if u guys feel i should not come to 10mans i understand.

Leaders and Officers alike get VERY angry about gear, loot, and performance... so, it's not just you. Alot of issues get worked out because of the issues brought up from such frustrations; like our loot system or who gets to come and who doesnt.

I re thinked things after what ct said to me and its not right to stop raiding when things get hard or dont go my way.but like ct said u can still be good and have fun.The people in Tsh need to learn not to get mad at some1 thats trying to help u saying u need to gem str not stam for dps should not get u on 1s ignore list.