DKP Changes for Ulduar

Hello All,

I'd like to use this thread for some discussion around our DKP system. Overall I believe that it has been an improvement over past methods, but still needs some work. I don't want to make any sweeping changes in the middle of "season", but when Ulduar comes out I believe that will be a great opportunity to make the system even better. Having said that, I still may decide to make some minor adjustments if I feel it will have an overall benefit to our process.

Some things that I've been thinking about include:

- Off-spec items should not cost DKP, or should be kept on a separate DKP table. Other methods used could include free rolls or secret bidding. This is something that I feel strongly about wanting to change. I'd like to do it sooner but the impact might be too significant on our current system. To do this I would need to adjust all previously won off-spec items. So at this point I plan on making a change for Ulduar.

- Possibly keeping ceilings and floors for dkp at modest levels so that the swings don't seem impossible. This may seem unfair to those people that are at the ceiling, but it may also help promote spending of dkp when possible. I also think the removal of off-spec items from the main dkp table will help in this.

Overall I think the system is working well. I would welcome any feedback and suggestions that anyone may have.

Thank you,

-Boman

I agree with off-spec items not costing any DKP. If no-one rolls on an item which would be main-spec it makes sense to award it to someone else for off-spec instead of letting it shard. However, doing so at the cost of DKP could potentially gimp a person's main-spec gear since they have been using their DKP for off-spec gear and cannot win the main-spec items they may need. If we could use Suicide Kings for off-spec gear that would be simple but I have no familiarity with either mods so I do not know what sorts of problems that would cause and I know that it took some learning on your part for the WebDKP now. As for adjusting the current DKP to reflect the change (if it is made) as though it was part of the process from the beginning I don't think it should be done. People knew the deal for DKP with regard to off-spec and made a conscious decision to spend their DKP on it. To change minds midway and then retroactively modify DKP would be unfair to those who didn't want to spend their DKP on off-spec when they could have because they wanted a shot at tier or some other piece. That would also go the other way around so changing/not changing will affect some people no matter what. It's easy to say "Tough luck for them" because it will only affect a small group of people (Druids...lol) but as a community sowing a seed for one possible problem tends to lead to others. I think it'll be better if the change to how the DKP is used (for off-spec) now without modifying the current DKP table is done.

As for a cap and floor, do it. Decaying DKP after no use for a certain number of raids would also be good but I don't have a good suggestion for implementing that.

I think I'd also like to say it's kind of "tough luck" to those people if they wanted to spend all their dkp on off-spec items. They're entitled to spend the dkp they earn however they wish, and if they dont care as much about main-spec to save their dkp then that's their decision.

I'd also like to put my absolute word here on what I think about random roll systems like suicide kings. They're crap, junk, unfair, and I wont support any such system. To distribute loot in a such a random fashion is a smack in the face to any and all people who come regularly to raid. If you were to tell me that some pug were to be able to snag my teir 7.5 from Kel'Thuzad just because he happened to randomly roll higher than me at the beginning of a raid, I'd be pretty pissed. We'd be no better off than we were in BC handing our gear to every random player who happened to wander into our "guild" raid.

I'm highly pleased with how dkp is going. Is it because I got that awesome shield? You're darn right it is! But, I was able to get that shield because I didnt fritter away my dkp on items I knew I'd never use for our raids. I saved my dkp for the items I really wanted, the items that presented me with the best upgrades. +2 to +3 stam isnt all that big of an upgrade, so I'd happily pass on that item for a chance at something which was +10 or +15 stam. It's all about managing money; some people can, some people cant. As for offspec items costing nothing, I'd say that's a little sketchy. Certain items and certain armor/weapon types get kind of fuzzy as Crip pointed out with the "best melee weapon in the game", which I believe was the Betrayer of Humanity. Is that mainspec or offspec for someone? Depends if they have titan's grip or not? Or if hunters are prioritized for agility on weapons? What about cloth items with hit... certainly that's offspec for a healer, but what about the cloth without hit. Technically it could be main spec for any clothie, but should a healer be the main spec person for it? Offspec is too touchy a concept to start splitting hairs about.

My question is... what's wrong with charging for people to take offspec items?

As for the ceiling and floor cap for dkp, I think that's highly unfair also. Again, if I'm looking at a +3 stam increase and a +15 stam increase, I think I'd hold out a little longer. Sadly, some people might have huge amounts of dkp and other extremely little, that's the nature of dkp... it's one of the supposed flaws in the system. The way I'm currently viewing our dkp system is that it's a protection from loot whores. In all seriousness our system currently rewards the people who show up, stay the whole time, and contribute to downing bosses; it also punishes people who want everything for themselves with little or no regard for their main spec or any other players needs. If people want an item, they can have it (but at a price). I'd be interested more in hearing how our system right now is just too unfair.

Short answer: Keep DKP for "off-spec" items, put in place DKP limits upper and lower.

Long answer: Only certain classes benefit from "off-spec" items. For example, what exactly would be "off-spec" for a Hunter, Mage, Warlock, Death Knight as opposed to a Druid, Shaman, Paladin? This would reward some who can't benefit from it anyway indirectly in that it lowers the DKP of potential competition.

On the other hand, classes which could potentially benefit the guild/raid from accumulating "off-spec" items have to make a choice. For example, an Enhancement Shaman (I heard they exist) who is building a Resto set of gear has to decide just how much he wants to spend. Having to spend his DKP for a Resto set may deter him enough to not spend it, and the guild/raid loses out on a potential healer (assuming dual-spec). As Oz said though, it’s all about learning to manage your DKP, and maybe doing some research to see what is available in the dungeon you are running to see what is worth buying.

Also, for a caster, what exactly are we calling “off-spec?” If an item has spirit or MP5 is it “off-spec” for a Mage while if it has +hit it is “off-spec” for a Holy Priest?

As to DKP limits, I'm all for that. Someone who is in a DKP hole so deep they will never get out, have nothing to lose from rolling on everything. If that person was also to benefit somehow, such as say an enchanter, then they are still theoretically making a profit. On a case by case basis, you may have to consider waiving this should an item drop that the person could actually need but be at the DPK bottom limit.

As to the ceiling, without one, it could become a deterrent to getting people to even come to the raid. Someone has just about everything from 25 Naxx they want except for the t7.5 hat, may decide the effort to help clear Naxx for someone who has a guarantee to get the item isn't worth their time. Having a ceiling would mean that if they keep coming, they will eventually reach the ceiling also and have a shot. Yes, this would actually suck for the person who has been at the cap the whole time waiting for the drop, but we still need a full raid to get there.

Some great comments. I agree that we need to add some form of decay into the system. Webdkp has some built in options for this, so I think it will definitely be easy to put into place. My first goal was to get it up and running though without making it too complicated and screwing things up.

Offspec is a complex issue. So I'm glad that there was some feedback. It makes me think I was too quick to judge on that one. It's an issue that deserves more discussion. I think we can all agree that there is a "Main Spec" when it comes to rolling on items? I don't profess to be an expert on all classes, but certainly many classes have multiple specs that require different gear for maximum efficiency. An example that was noted earlier, a cloth piece with +hit shouldn't go to a healer as main spec because that item will be much better itemized for a caster class that needs +hit. But, is that fair to the cloth healer since other pieces may come up without +hit, but a caster may be hit capped and it is of as much value to them. But what if the item has more spirit? It's the difficult question of where is the best place to draw the line. And maybe we don't need to and we just leave it discretionary, but that does cause periodic issues.

In terms of suicide kings - I have to say that it's working out good for us in our 10-man. It's not complicated and it helps spread things out a little bit. But, as for me, I've always been a fan of spreading out the loot so it makes sense that I would like it. It has caused some issues when we've had to PUG, as most loot systems will, but it hasn't stopped people from coming yet.

-Boman

Just commenting about the spirit stat, it is not primarily a priest/healer stat anymore, with 3.0 blizz has tried to play up the importance to spirit and regen for almost all casters, i know now locks and arcane mages can do with lots of spirit in their gear, it helps with dps and mana management.

So for casters/cloth healers i think almost all is fair game except a lock taking mp5 gear -.- for the mp5...

But imo somethings i would like to see besides the aforementioned caps and decay.

DKP price can be fine tuned a bit more.

for example, Weapons and rings and trinkets should not cost the dkp imo it is a bit much that a 2 hander will cost the same price as a ring and vice versa.

I know bo does it that way for simplicity but from what i remembered DKP for gear went like this... Highest Price was Weapons then Armor and lowest Price for Rings/trinket/offhand.

eg Weapons cost 150 dkp
Armor cost 100dkp
Rings/Trinkets/offhands/Necks cost 50dkp.

HMMM Well as this whole DKP system goes now I think for one that the off-spec items should definately cost DKP for the fact that if you are getting gear that you are going to use you should have to pay for it in some fashion, but on the same hand I think that half DKP is severily too much lets the players decide how much that item is worth to them by beidding in raid in an auction style. I mean that makes perfect sense to me. As far as certain Items for certain classes we can use common sense. A healer does not need hit so if its between a healer and a dps I would think that you would distribute the loot as to which player it suits best. And the good old Betrayer Of Humanity for example you would not want to give to a hunter before a melee dps simply for the fact that a 2H weapon is for a hunter like a bow is for a warrior its just some stats. The one major issue I have right now with our current DKP system is the flat rate for any item thats not Tier. I wont support this system nor agree to it no matter what. I dont care how long you make me play under it. Hence the reason Criphunter has full Tier 7.5 and good weapons but still rocking blue rings. I think it is nuts that I would pay 100DKP for The Betrayer Of Humanity for example and a ring cost the same amount. Tier I think is fine but the other gear needs to be changed up a bit. And I think that should vary by class when it comes to bows and weapons as to the price. Well this is good ole Crip daddys and you have my two cents worth.... PEACE!

that is a good point that I avoided initially due to wanting to get dkp started quickly. How does everyone feel about item costs, and should they be different for different items?

-Boman

a cap is a good idea that or decaying dkp for the none spendiers out there, something that would generally even out the gaps between those who dont spend and those who do, no offence but if you really dont need anything from the raid thats cool but what do you need the dkp for except anything but a epeen patience measurement? jkjk anyway i do like the idea of having something like that.

I'd agree that different kinds of items could cost different amounts. Tier would cost the most, since it's the most valuable generally. I'd say weapons after that, since weapons don't drop all that often and once you've got the one you want you wont need another for a long time. I'd say regular armor items next since they're the most abundant, and then trinkets and relics. I'm not sure exactly what to say about relics though since they're the most unique items for classes and specs. If one drops, chances are that only one or two people will make use of it, if at all. But a warrior uses bows/guns/throwing weapons like relics in certain respects... there is a sense in which case by case might be a good option too; I know that gear is taken on a case by case basis each time for group 2 to make sure people get a say in what item would be best for them.

As for valuing the gear it'd kind of depend on how much you might expect a person to get from a single run. If you'd expect people only to get one tier item for the run, then the amount you get for clearing naxx should equal the most expensive item (i.e. a tier item). Full run atm earns about 150ish dkp, so tier items should cost as much (as they do currently). But, how much is that tier item worth? Maybe a regular item and a ring in terms of stats? So have regular armor be 100 dkp and rings about 50dkp. Trinkets arent much for stats and give a small boost, so they're probably worth half a ring (25dkp). Relics then (or items considered relic-ish) you'd expect to get once in the whole run of naxx if at all? And given their specific use, they seem to be the most useful only to one class, so maybe 10dkp? About what you'd expect to get from a single boss kill at any given time.

Valuing items on a piece by piece basis is tricky. This is especially for items that aren't the best in the game for a particular spot. For example, several tier pieces are not the best for their slot so why should they cost more DKP than a non tier piece which is superior than the tier for that slot? I think it would be best if the valuation is kept at an item type category like weapon > armor > trinket > ring. I would be crazy to spend more DKP on a tier piece if there are other items better than it.

I'd just want to make sure we arent being too paternalistic with our raids; telling people what's best for them to take and what gear would be best for them. We have to leave much up to the player themselves in my opinion. If they turn out to be a bad player, it'll show and they shouldn't necessarily come back.

And what is the general opinion on dkp bidding?

-Boman

After other ppl and then boman mentioned to me about bidding system, i have started looking it over, i like it but a lot of work has to be put into it, lots of checks and balances, seems like a fun system tho when you get it going.